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GET IT OFF YOUR CHEST - Are Russian minority groups mistreated in Baltic states?

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Sevodnya_Net July 20, 2008, 15:24: " PS. I saw a minivan with an "ES" sticker next to a McCAIN sticker on it recently, the driver was some old bat. I bet it was your grandma. I should have run her off the road! ;"

Emil,
You are a disgrace. Not the only one, it is true ...

RT's latest poll contains an "Estonian" option for dealing with large minorities: "Learn (the language) or leave."
I wasn't aware that it was Estonian policy to force its non-Estonian speakiers out of the country. Is it true? If so how many have been forced out? Do we have any figures?

"Where Guistino and Marzipan lack substance, they makes up for it with lots of comments, because they think that if they repeat the same thing over and over again in many different forms, it will somehow become part of you subconsciousness. Again kids, the people here are too educated to fall for that crap."
The words of Californian: substitute "Russian media (including sad to say RT)" for "Giustino and Marzipan" and you have a sentence with some credibility. What proportion of readers "fall for that crap" I can't say but I think it's coming to something when we have to resort to a TV station's discussion forum alone for an intelligent counter-argument.
Marzipan6 July 20, 2008, 12:15: Californian, I’ll leave it to Guistino to respond to the bulk of your recent post if he wishes to, but I will comment on just the following. You wrote, “As for politics, it's primarily bullshit. The problem is that Estonians do treat Russians like second-class citizens, and if Estonian Gov't. worked with the Russians on their education gov't. budget and promoted Russian speaking schools, I doubt Tallinn would remain self-segregated for long.”

First, Russians who have Estonian citizenship are treated as full citizens. Some emotional barriers may be in place, depending on the emotional dispositions of both people concerned, but if you ever took time off from your pontificating to actually visit the place, you will find that there is no institutional oppression of Russians at all.

Secondly, Russians, Turks, Tuvaluvians and Americans who visit or reside in Estonia but are not citizens are not treated as second-class citizens, because they are not citizens at all. But they are treated with every consideration due to any peoples anywhere, and in full accordance with European and UN human rights conventions.

Thirdly, Estonia not only promotes Russian speaking schools but has financed them since forever from the state budget, and continues to do so. The same applies to some other foreign language schools that are other than Russian. But it requires a minimum amount of education in all foreign language schools to also be provided with Estonian being the language of instruction, and it does not allow accredited schools, whether Estonian, Russian or otherwise, to turn out graduates who do not know the Estonian language. This actually pleased the parents of Russian children, who not only insist that their children also learn Estonia, but who are even crowding Estonian pre-school kindergartens so as to ensure that their children get the best possible start in learning the language.
Marzipan6 July 20, 2008, 12:03: Emil, I have heard numbers of Estonians who went abroad during the Soviet years tell of their experiences. Some went as members of Olympic teams, others as science experts in one field or another. All who travelled in groups had a NKVD/KGB operative along. Some who travelled alone would not have had, but they had an invitation to a meeting with the KGB before they left with the specific instruction that if they as much as spoke to any Estonians abroad, let alone visited any, both they and their families would suffer as a result. These strictures fell away to some extent in the final years of the SU, but they characterised the majority of Soviet history.

You also write that the SU was culturally diverse internally and “Thus limited cultural exchange with the west was not too detrimental to the overall cultural diversity of the country.” It merely left it with pretty much the same world view and balance as enjoyed by North Korea today.

You also praise Soviet education. The Soviet curricula, in Estonia and elsewhere were characterized by the following:
1. Undisguised ideology in all subjects, focusing on indoctrination in the class struggle, the leading role of the communist party, imperialism and communism. History and social sciences suffered most;
2. Weakness, if not total absence of political and economic sciences;
3. Isolation from intellectual development of the rest of the world; access to Western philosophy, art and (social) sciences only through the filter of criticism that afforded an ideologically shifted interpretation of the ‘bourgeois’ mentality and society.
4. The deepening of intellectual isolation due to poor knowledge of foreign languages, caused by the insignificant share of teaching foreign languages at secondary and vocational schools, and also at institutions of higher education;
5. The disproportionately large share of Russian language, literature and history at Estonian-language schools, compared with the few lessons of Estonian language and cultural history in Russian schools, and often more or less neglected; considerable rift between the education obtained in Estonian and Russian languages;
6. A strong preference for encyclopedic knowledge, primarily regarding factual material in natural sciences, over solving problems, learning how to make decisions and bring about changes;
7. Primitive attempts — periodically tested, and largely failing — to bring academic education, at basic, secondary and higher levels, closer to production and life.
Marzipan6 July 20, 2008, 11:36: Emil also doesn’t like my grandmother. She was a very nice lady, now long since dead, so Emil can be spared the jail term which running her off the road, as he threatened, would merit.

She had a hard life though, Emil. She had to see one of her sons arrested by Russians and sent to Siberia where he died in a slave labour camp. She had to see another of her sons illegally conscripted by Soviet occupation authorities into the Red Army (from which he eventually escaped). And she had to see all her numerous other sons and daughters, along with their families, flee for their lives from to various different parts of the world never to be re-united again, and herself also in her old age, leaving absolutely everything behind so as to escape the atrocities of the Soviet occupation of their homeland, and never to be united again as a family.

However, I never heard her, or my parents, aunts or uncles, ever express any bitterness about it, nor any hatred of Russians. Only profound sorrow. Yes, I definitely think you would like her had you known her.
Marzipan6 July 20, 2008, 11:23: Emil writes, “I find your classification of nationalism into nice and not nice laughable, as I do your advocating that as long as it is "nice" nationalism is OK. Well, you must not understand that I am against ALL Estonian, and any other nationalism”

If he checks the Forum record, I think Emil will find that classifying nationalism into “nice” or otherwise was his original terminology. All that I did was highlight some basic differences between the typical nationalism of large and powerful countries (the chauvinistic type) and of small and powerless countries (the nurturing type). Whereas Emil has made it abundantly clear that he does not agree with this classification, he has left it a closely guarded secret as to which facts I presented in the context of my explanation that are misleading or false, and that do not support my categorization. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that his opinion is simply that – his own, personal opinion, based not on facts but on preference. Which is fine, he is welcome to his opinion. But he should not assume that it is anything more noteworthy than only that.
Marzipan6 July 20, 2008, 11:12: Emil, you write:

“‘Where is the American equivalent?’ Read Michael Parenti's ‘Against Empire’ for starters. Then try Howard Zinn's ‘People's History of the United States’.”

Perhaps you could save time by pointing me straight to the page where it tells of up to twenty million of its citizens whom the US murdered, either by artificially produced famines, by firing squads, or starving and working them to death in a vast network of slave labour camps throughout the country.
Marzipan6 July 20, 2008, 11:04: RT is currently running the following questionnaire on its home page: “What is the best policy for a country with a large ethnic minority?” It provides opportunity to vote for what it represents as a French, US and Swiss positions, but it heads the list with the following alleged Estonian position: “Estonian way: make them learn (presumably learn the language of the land) or leave!”

This option is completely fictitious, RT, and it renders your voting results meaningless. No one is making newcomers learn anything, nor is anyone forced to leave. The opportunity to be granted citizenship by naturalization is made available, and as in any country, knowing the language of the land and understanding a little about the civic institutions of the country and how they work is necessary knowledge. This is scarcely unusual – for example, the Duma recently encouraged immigrants to learn Russian, so as to advance in Russia ( http://www.mnweekly.ru/news/20080626/55335158.html ), and I don’t find Estonian media or anyone else demonizing Russia because of that. Foreigners in Estonia who do not wish to acquire the Estonian language nor Estonian citizenship are able to remain in the country to their hearts’ content, and have all the same social benefits available to them as anyone else. No one is forcing anyone to leave, and if RT doesn’t know this, it should.

Perhaps the RT staffer who prepared that very misleading questionnaire would like to explain to us what is the factual basis supporting the claim that Estonia forces its minority population to learn anything, and on pain of deportation from the country yet. Right here at the end of this post would be a good place to provide your explanation. As a news outlet I’m sure you’re your credibility as a trustworthy presenter of facts is important both to you and to your readers.
Californian July 20, 2008, 01:11: Where Guistino and Marzipan lack substance, they makes up for it with lots of comments, because they think that if they repeat the same thing over and over again in many different forms, it will somehow become part of you subconsciousness. Again kids, the people here are too educated to fall for that crap.

Giustino, you compare Russian Culture to NKVD? You seem to be a bit confused, so let me clarify: NKVD was NOT a big part of Russian Culture, in fact Russian Culture fought NKVD with methods such as Zotov Yazuk, (basically a parody that doesn't mention any names but makes it clear who the idiot (usually Brezhnev) is and shows how inept they are). Once the Iron Curtain Fell Russians set to seeing the rest of the World, and to this day there isn't a place in the World that hasn't seen a Russian Tourist. So Russian Culture worked against NKVD, not for them.

And now you're citing fractions?! 1/8th Russian, WTF?! You Estonians actually measure that stuff. Good to know. I learned something new today, I didn't realize that fractions counted so much in Estonia. In California, no one really cares what 1/8th you are; in the post-Reconstruction South, under Jim Crow they did, where Plessy was 1/8th Black. Funny thing is that both of you, Giustino and Jim Crow, agreed that 1/8th qualifies. Me, I don't really care, I only count fractions when it comes to money or for research purposes.

As for good clothing coming from Germany, umm, not too sure about that, got any evidence? Because German cars were better then Russian cars, and so were their radios, but as for clothing, you might want to double-check that.

I love how you cite cartoons as Soviet Propaganda. I'd never thought that Nuy Pogodi was so pro-Stalin. Now I know it is. (Oh come on, I gotta how some sarcasm!)

Now Giustino - the reason that Russians don't care about Swedish and Finn cooperation with Estonia, is because umm, they don't want to invade Estonia. On the other hand Russians don't want NATO on their border. If Finland tried to join NATO, you'd see the Russians respond very quickly. But when Finland joined the Euro. Union, Russians didn't really care, as that's an economic block. Economic blocks in the future will rise, military blocks will fall, learn to differentiate the two.

The Bronze Soldier was about Estonia saying fuck you to Red Army and Russians, not about power struggles in a single city, and the mayor of Tallinn actually opposed the "relocation". Facts are your friend Giustino, don't try to argue agaisnt them.

As for politics, it's primarily bullshit. The problem is that Estonians do treat Russians like second-class citizens, and if Estonian Gov't. worked with the Russians on their education gov't. budget and promoted Russian speaking schools, I doubt Tallinn would remain self-segregated for long.
Emil July 20, 2008, 00:15: "...locked Russia and Russians behind an iron curtain for seventy years, hermetically sealed from the rest of the world. And that allowed only the most privileged Russians to travel abroad beyond Moscow’s empire, and then only with an NKVD/KGB operative in tow"

Untrue. First of all - there existed certainly cultural exchange with the west, through various programs for students, scientist and educators, as well as lesser things like tele-bridges and festivals. Tourist excursions were also possible, albeit very hard to book, that much is true, in part because of the cronyism of the travel agents coupled with large demand.

My father - who was a scientist at Moscow State University, went abroad in the late 80's a number of times. To the USA, Norway, England, as well as Italy. As far as he knew there were no KGB men tailing him and he went on shopping trips and other tourist attractions in his free time from seminar work.

Secondly, the USSR was culturally diverse as it was. Thus limited cultural exchange with the west was not too detrimental to the overall cultural diversity in the country.

Of note also is that the USSR's limitations on western culture mainly extended to contemporary popular culture. Otherwise, a student in the USSR was probably better versed in classical western literature and art than many western students.
A Finn July 19, 2008, 21:45: Giustino,
I have no doubt that you are correct. But it was you that was peddling the inaccuracy about Finland in this case - not Russia! You were the one insinuating that somehow Mannerheim could be a Nazi. Which makes your arguments rather ironic.
Emil July 19, 2008, 20:03: "In the 1990s, Estonian nationalism has become decidedly more Scandinavian in tone, to the unfortunate point that I recently read that Finnish, Swedish, and Estonian skinheads are now cooperating. "

Yes, and I am sure these skinheads wholly approve of the current Estonian policies and attitudes discussed here.
Emil July 19, 2008, 19:38: M6: You twist my words as an excuse to expunge some more of your propaganda (which is your job). I find your classification of nationalism into nice and not nice laughable, as I do your advocating that as long as it is "nice" nationalism is OK. Well, you must not understand that I am against ALL Estonian, and any other nationalism. And that is what I meant when I said is that all you got. I expected you to come up with 2-3 pages of something else.

PS. I saw a minivan with an "ES" sticker next to a McCAIN sticker on it recently, the driver was some old bat. I bet it was your grandma. I should have run her off the road! ;)
Emil July 19, 2008, 19:17: "Where is the American equivalent?"

Read Michael Parenti's "Against Empire" for starters. Then try Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States".
Marzipan6 July 19, 2008, 04:48: Emil asks, “‘Nice’ nationalism! Is that all you got?” If you can find any history of violent, expansionist nationalism on the part of Estonia or of internal ethnic nationalistic violence, please do tell us about it and don’t keep it a secret. I certainly don’t know of any.

During the Viking era, Estonians did mount raids against some coastal settlements in Sweden and elsewhere in reprisal for previous raids against themselves, and foreign civilians did suffer as a result. And their long, 700-year night of slavery was preceded by many battles against encroaching foreign armies, and included several famous uprisings against oppression after slavery had been established. But none of this represents ethnic hatreds per se, nor anti-foreign pogroms.

Then there was Estonia’s fairly bloody War of Independence of 1918-20. But this was fought against foreign armies, not foreign civilians, and involved no Estonian atrocities. During three years of German occupation during WW2, at a time when no it had no national government of its own, some Estonians fought within the German army because they had no army of their own within which to resist the returning Russian occupation, and some indeed participated in German war crimes. Estonia struggled free of the subsequent Soviet occupation without any blood being shed at all, and since then has worked hard to integrate Soviet-era colonists by providing them with citizenship through naturalization and equipping them linguistically and socially to function successfully throughout all of Estonia.

So as I said, if there is any “unnice” Estonian nationalism, perhaps similar to Russian or German blood-soaked nationalism, or even to French or Belgian nationalism in Africa, perhaps Emil could tell us all about it.
Marzipan6 July 19, 2008, 04:47: DD suggests my description of a particular military parade stereotype might indicate jealousy. Why should I be jealous of foolishness?

DD goes on to say of Russia’s distinctive ceremonial parades, “If Russians like it, then who are we to criticize it?” Those who suffered under Russia’s Soviet era chauvinism have every right in the world to criticise both it and its trappings, just as those who suffered under Germany’s Nazi era chauvinism would have every right to criticise its manifestations were these to exist in present-day Germany. Thankfully, they don’t exist, because Germany has changed.

DD also asks me to comment on US policies of the past 15 years. It is a typical strategy of apologists for Russian propaganda to avoid embarrassment arising from Russia’s actions by diverting attention to some other country, usually the US. I have personally noticed this over a long time, and I have also read books and articles by other analysts describing exactly the same phenomenon – and here we have yet another example of it. There are several active topics on RT dealing with the US, and perhaps DD should confine his American-centred discussions there.

I will briefly comment, though, that it is an occupational hazard of all large and powerful countries to have a concept and practice of nationalism that veers more to the chauvinism side of the spectrum, and the US is no exception. Based on this chauvinism, some of its Middle Eastern policies, in particular, have been exceptionally ill-advised. However, by any measure that one may wish to apply, whether of innocent civilians murdered, of countries occupied, of populations cut off from the rest of the world, of terror practised, of sovereign nations destroyed, of poverty caused, there is no comparison between the records of the US and of Russia. Nor in their respective history of slave labour camps established. To this day, each spring thaw in Russia exposes anew bones of some of the millions of the Gulag murdered. Where is the American equivalent?