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GET IT OFF YOUR CHEST - Independence of unrecognised states: who should decide if they are entitled to sovereignty?
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- michael September 6, 2008, 00:56
- Georgia's leader attacked civilians = war crimes in my opinion.
Russia should have took him into custody before they left.
Russia was very just in the matter, they told them that they would roll in if they didnt stop the aggression, they ignored and got delt with accordingly.
Just be glad this was not America who attacked back into Georgia, because you know they would be setting up shop as we speak, there would be no discussion about what went down or the choices made.
The UN is a hoax, the UN is nothing more than the NEOCON's round table. The UN should be abolished, they cause more harm then they do good, look up some of the fun stuff the UN did in Africa to the poor citizens!
And the Irony of America sending Cheney to talk about making peace, lol. This just goes to show the audacity of the Neocons. Cheney's company Halberton would not even give safe water to our own US troops, so they could save money. These guys are real scum bags with no care for human life, other than their own.
- Aryan Indian September 5, 2008, 23:08
- I just read one comment, was little profound so I will put here little modified.
" YOU DON'T BOMB TO MAKE PEACE, IT IS LIKE LET ME RAPE YOU SO YOU CAN BE VIRGIN "
I still don't agree what Sakhasvilli did, I dont even understand that in past 2 attempts, Georgia tried, thats how S.Ossetia and Abkhazia got DeFacto independence,
What Georgia thought that after 3rd time This regions will join Georgia? I still dont get it, He is that stupid to know that after attacking people, you expect them to be your friend and start living with you in your house? Hell no. He is so stupid, He should have know that DeFacto will become FULL Independence if you attack them in the middle of the night when they are sleeping. No way S.Ossetia and Abkhazia can be part of Georgia now, There is just no way.
- D.C.M. September 5, 2008, 01:30
- I think this is possibly one of the most difficult questions to answer, possibly one as difficult as "what's the meaning of life".
Normally I would say the majority of the countries of th world should decide in the UN.
But has Asia got an interest in politics in Kosovo where the US and EU created a separate state? No.
Thus what would happen in this case is that you get two power block and a large group of indifferent parties, which may be "bought" in a way by favours like military support, economic support.
If a region could decide upon its souvereignity itself it would also cause problems.
Consider Bavaria would want to split from Germany, it would carve the country in two. (Not that I mind as a German citizen who doesn't feel German but rather European)
This is a question that cannot be answered, pleasing all parties. After World War 2 it was easy, the two important players were the US & UK and Russia (the Soviet Union).
Today these factions no longer exist.
Still I'd say the UN is the "best bet".
- 1 hotflame September 5, 2008, 00:05
- I strongly disagree with the actions taken by The president of Georgia. He wanted to take the region back by force and I think that he is just a puppet of some powerful force. He basically exposed his people and his country to a total destruction. Lets look at the example of Kosovo they were independed for close to 10 years and they were recognized now a Abbkasia and Ossieta were self-govern for close to 18 years that is a long time. I am glad that they finally were recognized.
- Aryan Indian September 4, 2008, 23:36
- Rob, You are wrong. Let me give you example on your Sochi giving back to Georgia (after gave Ukraine back)
See when British people invaded India, there were so many states. One state was Punjab, The Brave people of Punjab region (same as Muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh)
This small states tried to fight against Brits for 200 years and they could not defeat brits.
So they joined with rest of India (Punjab,Pakistan,Bangladesh) and lots of Indians lost their lives to make whole India Independent.
So when this states had TIDES against them 200 years ago, they joined India to defeat common enemy. and now after 60 years Pakistan,Bangladesh wanted to be seperate state (Brit tides and Brits enemy are gone)
and in 80's Punjab also asking for seperate Khalistan.
SO MY POINT IS.
you seek help and sign the treaty and deal that we are united with each other, you give me your blood is trying to make you and me both independent, and Once they become Independent, You want to get seperated again, then What about those Treaty and those Deals signed in Troubled time?
Finland for 600 years, could not defeat Swedish Invaders, and Russia helped them to Expel Swedish out of Finland. Russia Monitored for 100 years that Swedish dont come back to Invade Finland and once that region was secure, Russia gave Finland thier own independence in 1917.
Same way Ukraine and all other 15 states of USSR were formed like that, Ukraine was invaded by Turkey and Persian and they asked help from Russia and Russia got them Victory.
But Russia made treaty then whenever this states want to Separate from USSR they can, and thats how we have 15 pieces of USSR.
Russia was invited by northern alliance to fight against Taliban (which your NATO and EU and USA) is fighting for last 8 years. but that time your F******ing USA supplied weapons and money to Taliban against Northern Alliance and Soviets.
NOW it is same thing about Georgia, what if in 50 years some 10 Georgian Will attack on Paris, or Brussels or NewYork?
WHAT WILL YOU DO THEN?
- Enrique September 4, 2008, 18:43
- There are still clear problems with two well recognised states: Israel and Taiwan.
Taiwan, with a GDP and population similar to Australia is not recognised by dozens of states...
Israel is not recognised by dozens of nations...
In both cases it is a long process. Of exchange of goods and diplomacy to get recognised by other countries.
Spain didn´t establish diplomatic relations with the state of Israel until 1986.
Even USA started from Secession in 1776...but less than one century later, in 1861, nobody in the international community recognised the newly independent Confederate States of America (C.S.A.), which was a bigger nation than most in the World. But if the C.S.A. had won the War of Secession and there was a "de facto" irreversible situation of separation it would have been recognised as a Sovereign nation.
- Sam September 4, 2008, 00:47
- So it seems that Nicaragua in the second country to recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Guess Daniel Ortega had not forgotten the Iran-Contra affair yet:)
- Rob August 27, 2008, 19:26
- Misha
I have written previously about the drawing and redrawing of borders, how far do you want to go back, Georgia has been attacked and cut and carved up all through its history because it is a beautiful country and in addition it is a direct route to Asia from the black sea.
Georgia was a exciting vibrant country but unfortunatly therough the centries the size of its land mass has been diminished by occupation or just plain opportunism, either by Turkey, Stalin and many others, why do people blame them for attempting to retain what is left, Sochi was part of Georgia so lets have the winter olympics there after handing Georgia their territory back.
Of course this will never happen but for all the armchair forum writers please take a look at the 'independant' history books before you attempt to blame one side or the other, if you look at the earth from a satellite you can see a beautiful planet, it is only the humans who are intent to carve it up into little slices for their own political or financial gain, it really is a sad world, perhaps we should pray for another meteor similar to the one which wiped out the dinosaurs, then the earth can start again with perhaps less aggresive animals as the dominant species.
- Aryan Indian August 27, 2008, 13:10
- Happy- I agree with you completely, there is no way S.Oseetians and Abkhazians want to be with Georiga after 3rd time they tried to eliminate them,
This both region can not ask protection from US,EU,NATO or infact UN as this all fancy names are another nick name of US and they all obviously SUPPORT,SUPPY and TRAIN militarily to Georgia.
Only best way they can get support and protection is Russia. No other nation can look right back into eye of this Fancy nick names of EU,NATO,UN = US
- Aryan Indian August 27, 2008, 13:06
- Only Peope of that region can decide what they want to be, Independent, or Join with other nation.
No US,UN,EU or NATO can decide for THEM who they can be and who they can not be, It is the basic right of humans to be free, Cant bond them against their will to some other nation. You can not supress for longer, sooner or later it will eventually explode.
- happy August 26, 2008, 22:40
- The population of Ossetia has sought protection from Russia. There hardly likely to look to NATO for protection as NATO counties supplied the bombs and bullets that have killed there compatriots. In a rational world nationality wouldn't matter. In this one
you have to have at least one state you can depend on.
- MoscowExpat August 10, 2008, 09:40
- Who should decide? The resident population (of all ethnicities) and the diaspora born in the country. Abkhazians, Ossetians, Kurds, Armenians, Palestinians.
- Misha May 30, 2008, 00:13
- Abkhazia and South Ossetia really want independence, not to be a part of Georgia or Russia. But as long as Georgia and Russia are vying for control they are unlikely to get their independence. In that case both regions prefer to be part of Russia instead of Georgia (by a margin of 95% to 5%).
If the West was smart it would offer the breakaway regions independence, with Georgian agreement. It's not unlawful for a new independent country to be created on the territory of an existing country, but only if it is done without the consent of the mother country (as was done in Kosovo without the consent of Serbia). But if Georgia agrees to allow the regions to go independent, then the door is already open for international recognition of the new republics (within international law instead of contrary to it).
Georgia continues to cling to the belief that it will regain control over the breakaway republics (or I should say "gain control" not "regain", since Georgia never really had control previously). But that belief is just a Georgian pipe dream and the sooner they realize that the better off they will be. These regions are already de facto independent and with the passage of time that de facto reality will become the de jure reality as well, as the regions integrate more and more with Russia.
Georgia has now drawn encouragement in the belief that it can take Abkhazia and South Ossetia by the propospect of Georgian membership in NATO. Apparently NATO has yet explained to the Georgians that NATO isn't going to use Georgia as a springboard for invading Russia and starting the third world war.
Georgian acknowledgment of the basic reality that it will never have control over these autonomous regions and their peoples would then open the door to the recognition of the two republics, by Georgia and by the west at large. Georgia could condition recognition of independence on the withdrawal of Russian peacekeepers. Without a Georgian threat the regions have no reason to maintain the peacekeepers. This would then open the door to offers of economic aid to the republics from the west, which would lure them away from Russia.
The choice that Georgia has to make is whether it prefers these bordering regions to be be part of Russia or to be independent republics. I would think the Georgians would prefer to have the tiny republics on its borders, which are smaller than Georgia and unlikely to pose a threat, as opposed to having more of Russia on its borders, which most definitely is a threat.
From the western standpoint why should it matter whether this space is all Georgian or 3 separate republics? As long as the 3 republics are pro-western the west could care less what their political composition is. The west would be just as willing to break Georgia into smaller pieces as it broke former Yogoslavia into a dozen countries, some of which are very tiny (i.e., Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo, etc.)
Georgia apparantly believes that NATO is an "ethnic club" that will enter the region and then support the claims of Georgia in its feuds with other independence-minded ethnic clans. The West is encouraging Georgia in that ridiculous belief because it wants an energy corridor to transport Caspian oil and gas westward, and the west will say or do anything to secure this. (Georgia is the only route for such a corridor, besides through Russia or Iran.)
It's Tblitsi's irrational desire to impose its rule over the breakaway regions (which want nothing to do with Georgia) that is preventing a reconciliation between the parties which would block further expansion of Russian influence. These tiny republics are being pushed into the arms of Russia due to their fear of Georgia, the same way Georgia is pushed into the arms of the west by its fear of Russia.
For the west to achieve a productive outcome it would need to convince Tblitsi that it is in Georgian interests to recognize the independence of these regions (for example by conditioning NATO membership on the settlement of the conflicts).
- Sam May 29, 2008, 10:01
- Sevodnya_Net posted "The irony is that the more the Russian govt (and it isn't just mayor Luzhkov) sabre-rattle the easier it is for the evil Rose and Orange dictators to force NATO on their unsuspecting peoples :-) "
I do not think that USA and NATO are that stupid.The most likely reason Ukraine and Georgia were refused entery into NATO is for this very Reason.It seems only Bush did not see the bigger picture:)
There is no way they are going to put NATO in direct line to a military conflict with Russia.Ukraine and Georgia are too insignificant for that.NATO's easiest solution was not letting them in.It is likely to remain so until the territorial disputed are resolved.Ironically fastest way for Ukraine into NATO is to hold a refurendum in crimea and abide by the majority vote.For Georgia is to drop all claims on Abkhazia and south ossetia.
Being NATO will not protect anyone from Russia.Honestly lets assume Ukraine is NATO and Russian Paras land and lock down the Crimea do you really think the USA will go DEFCON for that or even move her troops there? Dont think so especially if Russia is on nuclear alert.If there is a nuclear missile travelling to Georgia,do you think USA will start a nuclear exchange?Nope as long as none are traveling to her a peace treaty will be reached over the red line immidiatly.Sad but true eastern europe are just pawns in the game.
- Sevodnya_Net May 28, 2008, 12:44
- .. but on the subject of the Crimea Misha has flown into Cloud Cuckoo land I fancy :-)
The irony is that the more the Russian govt (and it isn't just mayor Luzhkov) sabre-rattle the easier it is for the evil Rose and Orange dictators to force NATO on their unsuspecting peoples :-)
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