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GET IT OFF YOUR CHEST - Kosovo independence: is another Balkan war about to break out?

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Fred August 19, 2008, 08:50: Kosovo, Abkhazia, Ossetia, all 3 have been wronged & all 3 deserve a chance to break away. The tradgedy for Serbia is that it is a defeated nation that does not know how to behave. Germany and Japan accepted that they had done things that were wrong during the war, accepted the loss of some territory, rebuilt, & moved on to become G8 members and 2 of the 8 richest countries in the world.
Serbia, like the Palestinians today & Northern Irish in the past seem dedicated to extending fighting over small pieces of land & borders with guns & force for decades & centuries, never rebuilding, never accepting the reality of the situation, & never amounting to much, when the potential for prosperity is so much greater in a peaceful situation.......
johann August 19, 2008, 01:34: To SrbskiCnogorac
Helo my friend,i found this for you : „ Interview mit General Heinz Loquai: Kosovo Krieg illegal „at this address : http://www.german-foreign-policy.com...2004/42052.php
The Truth August 13, 2008, 02:30: To Jesse,
You sound like an expert on Serbia's armed forces capability. I would assume you aren't and have never been to Serbia so don't act like a ignorant American.
Serbia could not defeat NATO but neither could any single country in Europe. If you take NATO out of the equation (which is what is happening since America's influence in Europe is waning as Russia's is rising due to oil/gas market) then Serbia would roll over Albanians in Kosovo.
When the political climate in Europe and Serbia changes I think it's very possible for more Balkan wars.
SrpskiCrnogorac August 9, 2008, 21:03: In context of my last post:

Albanians Ready to Reshape Balkan Borders Again

http://www.kommersant.com/p-13004/Albanians_shape_split/
SrpskiCrnogorac August 8, 2008, 13:29: "A new Balkan War is no more likely than there being new wars between Native American Nations (such as my own, Cherokee) and the US military. Sad to say, but Serbia is a defeated Nation."

I disagree with your view, because Kosovo was only the beginning of the project of greater Albania, which is expected to become another Catholic/Muslim state for containing Orthodox/Russian influence.
A few days ago, a Montenegrin businessman, who is close to the opposition, was beaten. Usually in Montenegro people are killed immediately, but it seems that the regime is very nervous and scared and preferred a warning.
The wars of the 90´s were only an overture which was ended by false agreements due to Russia´s absence.
The big trouble is only beginning and the signs can be seen everywhere.
Regarding the question of war between Serbia and Nato, of course Serbia could not win a large scale war, but there won´t be any large scale war, because Russia won´t allow another bombing of Serbia.
If I am wrong with my view about Russia´s assistance, then neither Serbia nor Russia deserve to exist.
Californian August 7, 2008, 23:34: Jesse - the Native Americans were defeated in over a century of fighting and disastrous losses. Serbia has only been at war for a few decades. I doubt that Serbia's a defeated nation. As for their allies, do Russia, China and India (all of them vehemently against Kosovo) count?
Californian August 7, 2008, 23:32: Rad, you have proven yourself completely inept at reading comprehension. Let's get some quotes out here:

Quote me:
"I also said that if the World Court of Justice keeps on executing Serbs while letting the other go, the same thing that Nick F and SrpskiCrnogorac pointed out, the Serbs will get their own viligilante justice, because NATO and WC aren't giving them any choice."

Umm, now let's qoute Ret err Rad:
"Kalifornian's absurd comments have no bounds...Real Serbians themselves must realize the game plan of what the West is doing and eliminate all Western occupation democratic processes and its mechanisms."

Read up Rad, that's kind of what I just said. So your plan, is to claim that my statesments are absurd, and then to rephrase my statements! Brilliant! You are clearly a credit to society!

Nevermind that the US Government wasn't democratically elected. Nevermind that Bush's entire government is about to be put on trial. Never mind that the reason that Hillary Clinton lost the primaries, were her (and her husband's) illegal actions in Serbia. Clearly, in Rad's Stalinist mind, because I live in the west, my posts must be attacked, even if he agrees with them. And have you ever noticed how lower quality posters try to have their posts super-long, to make up for how much their posts suck.

"Regrettably. Democracy is not a peaceful process and the betrayals began long ago and remain unchanged."

The general idea of Democracy is to have a peaceful process, and that's how Democracy should work. If you were to spend an iota of your time studying real democracy, vs. American democracy, btw Russia has it's own version of democracy too, and Medvedev's election was rather peaceful; I am willing to bet you don't even know how the electoral college works and how it hurts Democracy, do you?

So please, please Rad, stop writing. I've already used your and Marzipan's debate for my comedy night script, so at this point your posts are pretty much as useless as Bill O'Reilly is, that is to say that they only get in the way and help the Neocons genius. (The genius part was sarcasm.)
Jesse August 5, 2008, 05:21: To all,
Regarding discussion of butchers in the Balkans, I think this discussion, though useful, is moot. In context, pardon the term, will there be a new Balkans War over Kosovo Independence? My answer is no. A new Balkan War is no more likely than there being new wars between Native American Nations (such as my own, Cherokee) and the US military. Sad to say, but Serbia is a defeated Nation. NATO did this with its brutal 1999 Air War on Serbia followed by the ouster of Slobodan Milosevic and Kustenica's handing him over to the ICC in The Hague. If Serbia is to reassert her sovereignty, she will need a powerful ally or three who would be willing to stick their necks out, should the internal conditions in Serbia produce another Nationalist regime with leaders willing to stand up to NATO in light of the consequences.
Rad August 4, 2008, 12:53: SrpskiCrnogorac writes on July 30, 2008, 12:34, Re: "Miss Piggy"
--------------
Goran

SrpskiCrnogorac writes on July 30, 2008, 12:34 Re: "And as it seems, the only way will be violently. People tried it democratically by voting against Tadic´s coalition, but Milosevic´s socialist party is continuing with betraying the people by forming a coalition with Tadic...."
--------------
Dindic-Tadic and their Gang of 8 Coup Plotters did not come to power peacefully.

Regrettably. Democracy is not a peaceful process and the betrayals began long ago and remain unchanged. How a victory could have or can still come about with and against a "collective" power base mind set such as this, makes evident the true scope and manner of sincere change necessary to rise above all of this. Insuring profiteering and wealth never again become a motivation in serious times like this.

The cause has become betrayals and panhandling to the same Hitler by the same self serving power base of wealth.

Milan Babić like Milošević was also said to "commit suicide" at the Hague taking the rest of the story to the grave. It seems to be a standard operating procedure of what possibilities bring closure to the West and serving the Wealth.

One can imagine how Karadžić would have been tricked and pressured under the guise for "the good of the nation" scapegoat to leave office for the true profiteering motivations of peace and integration of this same ruling power base.

Back in the day and with the passage of history, certainly opposing the Vance Plan proved to be the more sound approach. The RSK (SAO), certainly suffered for its opposition to it. Knowing what we know about Hitler, every other Negotiation should have met the same opposition.

Being forced to make "agreements" in the RSK,(SAO), RS and FRY with Hitler (i.e. the West) under the continuing pressure of Milošević (who held the beans, guns and bullets) who himself was also under pressure and also believing in the sincerity of the West for some domestic gain, again proved wrong. These unforgivable failures continue to plague all the Serbian lands into what they are today.

When the politicians and wealthy in Belgrade in positions of power think only of profits, making coalitions, for the sole purpose of accumulating wealth, and their Italian exotic sports car collections, this proves their true motivations and serves as a fatal sabotage to the true cause and benefit of the RSK (SAO), RS and FRY over the course of the long term, extending consequences to even 100 and a 1000 years from now. How does one now recover those lost positions with sincere people, with only the cause in their hearts and who are not interested in profits for the "connected class" as a factoring source of both their existence and motivation?.

One would think that with the shortages in military supplies in RSK, etc., from the beginnings, those who were accumulating wealth and as the wealthy class having access to resources in Belgrade and elsewhere, should have devoted everything to the cause and dressed more as simple peasants to insure its success.

Indeed, it is still very much about President Karadžić and every other Serbian and their allies.

You only need open your eyes to see the occupation. It is not about Tadic. It's not about the fairness of the Trial , the Judge, "deal," or any other carefully contrived Kalifornian distraction.

It's about becoming a Western Client State (i.e. Western Democracy) forced at gunpoint, under the threat of UN-NATO Bombing and the further invasions from this One World Western Democracy Alliance or being true to yourself, becoming Serbian and realizing who the enemies of humanity are and opposing them at every venue and approach. That's the issue.

The underhanded Kalifornian dealing from the bottom of the deck wants to calm the people with drugged hopes of pyrrhic victories with his devious anti Serb cowboy democratic pundit trickery, so they follow the crumbs laid out for them along the Yellow Brick Road to the never, neverland Netherlands of Western Client-ism, by recognizing and giving allegiance to the Anglo American One World Order and its processes. Note Kalifornia does not say renounce the United States, United Kingdom, the Western Alliance, its people and Hague who are the real culprits deserving justice. Nor does he mention how many Serbians have been hunted down by NATO allied assassination squads, the occupation, suffering and reason behind all of this. He and others like him want you to accept slavery to their one false God.

Kalifornian's absurd comments have no bounds, as if its a Serbian victory against Tadic that President Karadžić is on trial. In Kalifornia's gamesmanship, he would sacrifice a King Karadžić for the hope of taking a Pawn Tadic. What an utterly absurd proposition this is, if true, which it is not. nevertheless, the occupation of the Western Alliance has an endless supply of traitorous Pawn "Serbs" to replace Tadic at the appropriate avenue. According to Tadic's speech, each "Serbian" Traitor will do his part to keep the Western Democratic process of occupation on track. As briefly mentioned in my other posts, that is the heart of the problem in all of the occupied Serbian lands.

Real Serbians themselves must realize the game plan of what the West is doing and eliminate all Western occupation democratic processes and its mechanisms. Once this basis is achieved by "cleaning house of these Vichy," then united Serbians can approach liberating all lands. One only has to look to America to see just what a small portion of the Colonial population supported liberty against British occupation, to realize that mass public support is not necessary.

I talked a little about the necessary sacrifices in previous posts. Serbians have to realize that all of us are giving up and renouncing the drug of Western success and profiteering in the short term and possibly for several generations of Serbians to come in the future. As long as it takes. All in the effort for a unified strategy to secure the liberation of the entirety of Serbian lands and proper place in the world as liberated states. For this to succeed, one must not embrace the enemy who has murdered Serbians on any level nor its political process of Western Democracy.

As already mentioned, it's also about ethics and integrity. Securing leadership positions are not get rich schemes. During the last wars there have been some who accumulate wealth for self enrichment, accumulating exotic Italian sports cars, etc. Any such corrupt person does not serve the best interests of the Serbian cause.

Some of you have also grown complacent about the occupation and recognize its right to exist, you've been divided like Palestine. The parts must never forget about the whole. The West is exploiting these divisions. Some have already forgotten the issues concerning the whole integrity of the RSK and RS and are only focusing on Kosovo as the only issue.

I talked a little about the necessary sacrifices in previous posts. It requires serious people who renounce Western Democracy are not motivated by money and material possessions. Serbians have to realize that all of us are giving up and renouncing the drug of Western success, all things Western and the concept of profiteering forevermore. All in the effort for a unified strategy to secure the liberation of the entirety of Serbian lands and proper place in the world as liberated states.

For this to succeed, one must not embrace the enemy who has murdered Serbians on any level nor its political process of Western Democracy and its tricks designed to erode your "hearts and minds." One can not have any love for occupiers and murderers of the Serbian people. The same applies to these egotistical "Serbian" sports and pop star figures distracting the people and becoming profiteers, showcasing his "success' stories. Being egotistical is not a contribution to liberation and all of these false stars in your lives must not have your support nor admiration if you're serious about contributing to victory. They must be shamed and treated as Vichy, not supported as idealized Serbians. It's outrageous, they're profiteering with the West, Tadic and his gang of Vichy Coup plotters while there is much suffering, homelessness and greater matters concerning the future of the Serbian people.

If the whole world had tuned out of the reality of the cause and preoccupied themselves with self enrichment, sports, music, radio, cultural pursuits, etc., under this "Love and Peace" propaganda mentality, Nazism would have solidified into the hearts and minds of the people creating several generations of Vichy. Many of you are allowing yourselves to fall victim to the same trickery perpetrated by Western NATO Democracy.

All energies must be focused on the Serbian cause of liberation. If you can break yourself free of these deceptive Western chains, that is a victory in itself. You must not think of prosperity and profiteering for yourself, but be a visionary for subsequent generations who because of your sacrifices will defeat the occupation and secure liberation that Kalifornian and others like him who are the enemy and murderers of our people don't want you to have.

Some of you have also grown complacent about the occupation and recognize its right to exist, you've been divided like Palestine. The parts must never forget about the whole. The West is exploiting these divisions with its old games of carrot and stick, divide and rule and coins for Judas and Barabas. Some have already forgotten the issues concerning the whole integrity of the RSK and RS and are only focusing on Kosovo as the only issue or other unrelated distracting matters.

How are you going to answer your children when they say what happened to Serbia? You'll either say they sacrificed their state of being in exchange for being Vichy. For McDonalds Big Macs, Western Music, Sports, Cultural Exchanges, Body piercing's, Nose rings, Belly button rings, Commerce and all the other detractions and traps of Western Democracy designed to destroy Serbia. Or you'll say Serbians fight like heroes against Vichy for liberation and show them the true path towards victory.

"Ladies and Gentlemen," Rooting out Vichy and their "Handlers" is not something you should expect Russia or anyone else to do, but the lawful right of the true Serbian people. This is a time for love only towards The Cause and not the deceptive enemy murderers we know only to well.

Ari, the information you posted certainly demonstrates the integrity of the ambassador, I only wish Israel had not supported this Waffen SS Croatia during the War.
SrpskiCrnogorac August 4, 2008, 12:06: Ari,

thank you for bringing up that case. There are many such cases like that recently in conncection with Thompson´s concert, when the police officer was suspended because of doing his job.
People in the West simply don´t understand the degree of glorifying Nazi crimes of WW2 in today´s Croatia (maybe because they don´t have much other history) and by that they don´t understand why Serbs went on the barricades in 1991.
I can only repeat, if Germany would behave like Croatia, it would be nuked by the former allies.

Regarding the "judge" Orie, maybe he will be expelled from that case as he was from Seselj´s case?
Everybody knows that the court will cease to exist after 2010, and now they want to finish the tral in only 2 years. This is of course only possible by cutting Karadzic´s right of defense and therefore I expect him to go into a hunger strike.
Californian August 4, 2008, 05:31: Sevodnya - EVERYONE knows that in order to have a fair trial, one MUST have an impartial judge. Of course with a judge who hates Serbs, and has been quite vocal about it in his implicit references, it's easy to play victim for Karadzic, because *gasp* he is being victimized. I am sure that there is a lot of testimony against Karadzic. I am sure that he can also produce a lot of counter-arguments. BUT with a BIASED JUDGE, who will NOT ALLOW Karadzic to produce his counter-arguments, how can the trial, in any way, shape or form be fair? If you live in a Western Country, you are either an idiot or know damn well that it is the judge who determines what kind of evidence will be presented. WITH A BIASED JUDGE, KARADZIC WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PRESENT HIS CASE, WHICH MAKES HIM THE VICTIM BY DEFAULT. And Sevodnya, you can ignore the argument, and jump all around this like a chained pit bull. But unless you can counter-argue this point, which is in capital letters, your point is moot.

Also Thaci in my eyes is just as guilty as Karadzic, why's he free? If the "unbiased" Hague as "unbiased" as OSCE, why not allow a real judge, not a Halliburton puppet who plays favorites?

SrpskiCrnogorac - thank you for the civil tone in your argument, I can only imagine how much this trial pains you. I wish certain other posters (Rad) would have used such a tone.
Ari August 4, 2008, 01:55: Israel’s ambassador to Croatia, Shmuel Meirom, harshly criticized on Thursday 31 July 2008 the funeral given to a head of a World War Two concentration camp in Zagreb, saying also that it insulted the memory of those killed in the camp run by Croatia’s Nazi-allied Ustasha regime. Sakic died aged 87 on July 20 while serving 20 years in prison for war crimes he committed as head of the notorious Jasenovac camp, the worst of about 40 camps run by the then Nazi puppet regime of Croatia. According to Croatia’s Vecernji List daily, Sakic was buried in the Ustasha uniform and described by the priest at the funeral as “a person Croats must be proud of”‘.

“I’m convinced that the majority of the Croatian people are shocked by the way the funeral of the Jasenovac commander and murderer, dressed in an Ustasha uniform, was conducted,” ambassador Meirom said in a written statement to the state news agency Hina. “At the same time, I strongly condemn the inappropriate words of the priest who served at the funeral and said that Sakic was a model for all Croats”Meirom said.

Dinko Sakic’s funeral was an “outrageous display of unrepentant racism, anti-Semitism and xenophobia,” the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Israeli branch director, Efraim Zuroff, said in a letter on July 30 addressed to President Stipe Mesic. Sakic fled Croatia when the pro-Nazi state was crushed in 1945. He was extradited from Argentina in 1998 to face trial in Croatia, where he was convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison.

Jasenovac

The Ustasha’s Independent State of Croatia (abbreviated as NDH) was proclaimed on April 10, 1941; territories besides those which were traditionally settled by the Croats were grafted into this state, including all of Bosnia- Herzegovina and parts of Serbia. There were more than two million Serbs living in the newly created puppet state, who made up one third of the entire population of the NDH. There were also significant numbers of Jews, Romanies and members of other national groups. As soon as the NDH was proclaimed, the leader of this Italo-German fabrication, the head of the Ustasha named Ante Pavelić, began to carry out the Ustasha’s program of the creation of a “purely Croatian area for living” and a “pure Croat nation”.

A very small number of Gypsies was filed, only a few hundred, while it is known that all 25,000-35,000 of them from the NDH were killed in Jasenovac. The Jewish community in Yugoslavia has established the number of 20,000 Jews that were killed in Jasenovac. The numbers of killed Serbs are truly varied. The sources from abroad mention numbers from 300,000 to 700,000. Anyway most of the people killed in Jasenovac were Serbs.

When looking those numbers, remembering that they are only from one camp and their relation to whole population in region that timeone can easy understand how deep ethnical wounds are.

Ante Pavelic

Ante Pavelic was the original Butcher of the Balkans. He was the leader of the Nazi puppet government of the “Independent State of Croatia” who died peacefully in Madrid in 1959. The mass murderer survived the Second World War and never faced a war crimes tribunal unlike Slobodan Milosevic whose alleged crimes pale in comparison. Instead Pavelic was offered sanctuary by the Vatican and became a security advisor to Juan and Eva Person before retiring to fascist Spain.

Recent history

Tudjman, the late blood stained ruler of Croatia, was a proponent of returning Pavelic to Croatia and indeed Pavelic would be pleased to find many new public monuments to his loyal Ustashe springing up like toadstools after a spring rain in democratic Croatia.
At the end of September 1991 (beggining of civil wars in Tito’s Yugoslavia, ed. n.), the Croatian Army entered the Jasenovac memorial park by force. According to the Hague Convention on the protection of historical and cultural monuments, the Croatian Army severely broke the agreement by entering the protected area. Although the international public informed about desecration of the memorial park. there was not much of a response. The Serbian forces liberated Jasenovac Memorial Park on October 8, 1991. During the withdrawal the Croatian Army placed explosives (and) blew up the bridge on the Sava River which connected the two parts of the Memorial Park; they also blew up the graves, destroyed the Museum artifacts and stole the Museum equipment. Due to the courage and enthusiasm of individuals who worked at the Memorial Park, some historical materials and objects were saved.

During last 20 years similar brutalities has took place also in Bosnia and Kosovo between different ethnical groups so Ms. Durhams words - "Balkan people are Living Past" - 100 years ago are still true and maybe also in future.

As sources of this article I ave used following links/portals:

* www.vaticanbankclaims.com (Alperin v. Vatican Bank was originally filed in Federal Court in San Francisco in November 1999. The plaintiffs are concentration camp survivors of Serb, Jewish, and Ukrainian background and their relatives as well as organizations representing over 300,000 Holocaust victims and their heirs.The plaintiffs seek an accounting and restitution of the Ustasha Treasury that according to the US State Department was illicitly transferred to the Vatican, the Franciscan Order and other banks after the end of the war)
* www.jasenovac.org (The Jasenovac Research Institute is a non-profit human rights organization and research institute committed to establishing the truth about the Holocaust in Yugoslavia and dedicated to the search for justice for its victims. The JRI promotes research and activities designed to enlighten the world to the crimes of genocide committed at Jasenovac and wartime Yugoslavia against Serbs, Jews and Romas and provides assistance to all groups and individuals who likewise seek justice for these victims.)
* www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/biblioteka/pavelicpapers (Jasenovac Committee of the Holy Assembly of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church)
* www.balkaninsight.com and
* http://arirusila.wordpress.com (my BalkanBlog)
Claudia August 4, 2008, 01:19: I love serbia and feel bad for everything that happend. But i do hope things will happen for the better!!! I pray everything will be fine
SrpskiCrnogorac August 3, 2008, 16:09: "Wordsworth also described Belgrade's announced initiative to have the International Court of Justice (ICJ) give its opinion on the Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence "a mistake", saying it constituted for "a direct challenge to the EU", that will "only make cooperation and Serbia's integration into the EU more difficult"."

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=08&dd=03&nav_id=52409

Just another example which reveals the criminal nature of the West. These are the kind of comments which make every Serb, including the so called pro western Tadic voters, crazy.
Sevodnya_Net August 2, 2008, 12:27: Californian,
As far as the trial is concerned, it will be necessary for proof to be produced that Karadzic ordered the Srebrenica massacre and - I believe - the murders (which is effectively what they were) in Sarajevo. I am confident that such evidence will be produced. It isn't as if there isn't a lack of witnesses or that there hasn't been sufficient time to prepare a case(!)
That said, Karadzic will find it easy to play the victim and that it will be distressing for the victims' relatives to see him posturing in the legal theatre prety much as Milosevic did before the grim reaper intervened there.
I appreciate that there are concerns about the court and that there are other, lesser but no less guilty war criminals from the other sides who have escaped justice through various means.
I'm sure we could all point to people we think ought to be in the dock for their crimes against humanity but who aren't but as I aid before that's no excuse to let those we do apprehend off the hook.