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GET IT OFF YOUR CHEST - Who's really to blame for Tallinn's War Memorial riots?

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Marzipan February 2, 2008, 05:57: For Russia, the issue is not about a memorial, but about a question that goes to the heart of Russia’s image of itself: was or was not Russia the Soviet Union? If Russia was the Soviet Union, it has to answer for Soviet crimes as well as bask in Soviet victories. If Russia was not the Soviet Union, then it has no business associating itself with either.

Russia wants it both ways at once: any good aspect of the Soviet past is its own, any bad aspect has nothing whatever to do with it. This is a schizophrenic view which lands it in exactly the kind of turmoil with its neighbours in which it constantly finds itself. Russia’s neighbours are not prepared to underwrite this kind of unreality.
Albert February 2, 2008, 02:25: This monument was moved long ago and much of the related tension has been vented off by both the local Russians and Estonians. However, this very monument stills seems to be an issue for Russian media, RT included. Please note that this is case is just about a monument being moved not removed or blown up, which happened to be the common practice with incoming Russian troops in the 1940s. Times change and monuments alike.

Estonia is such a small country on the world political map that Russia should be able to overlook the things that it does not particularly appreciate in the interest of the statehood and credibility among other great countries. The present foreign policy is that of a country that is big but not necessarily great.
Giustino February 1, 2008, 19:46: I think that Nashi makes Russians look exceptionally dumb.

I mean Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves was personally against moving the memorial.

And now they want him banned for supporting the removal?

That's doesn't make any sense. Can't Nashi even get these simple things straight?
Marzipan6 February 1, 2008, 12:19: Robert, you say that what is happening in Russia is no mystery to you. That is good.

But Estonia is not Russia.
ROBERT (U.S.) January 31, 2008, 20:10: Marzipan6 What is happining in Russia today is no mystery. When I studied Economics back in 1975 at the University. My professers told me what was going to happen in Russia back then and it did. Russia is right now an injured lion. But this lion is healling Rather quickly. Estonia is within the reach of Lions fangs. Or Estonia wouldn't be practicing passive aggression (intimidation tactics).But like they say in the U.S. The best investment a country can make is in there childrens education because it pays the biggest dividens. This is the course the Russian are taking. Besides going into a form of capitalist economy.
Marzipan6 January 31, 2008, 13:51: Robert (U.S.), you have a commendable philosophy, and I would urge you to stick to it.

Please read several of my posts on page 4 (by current configuration – page numbers will change as more post are added) of this thread, where I outline the challenge with which the Estonian government was faced, and how it responded to it. You may verify what I wrote from any relevant historical source or international commentary, other than from some of Russian origin. And even there, there are historical and media sources in Russia that agree with that analysis. By and large, “Russia Today” has given a pretty reasonable coverage of the matter in its reports.

Upon finding out more about the issue, you will understand that while the matter refers to the past, it isn’t about the past; it’s about the present and the future. Specifically, Moscow’s vision of what Estonia’s present and future ought to be based on its view of the past, as opposed to Estonia’s own view of what its present and future ought to be. As you learn more of the subject, you will come to understand what Moscow is doing to try to make its vision prevail, and what Estonia has to do to resist that challenge. This will modify the opinions you expressed in your post.
Marzipan6 January 31, 2008, 12:17: Sanjay, we appreciate your orientation to move on and improve the present situation vis-à-vis Russia and Estonia. I very much share that wish. But for a hoped-for solution to be achieved, it must be based on an accurate assessment of the problem. If one does not understand what the problem actually consists of, then he obviously cannot identify what to do to solve it. I believe your analysis of the problem is inaccurate in a number of points.

(1) Equating the Russian past and the Estonian present as causes of the problem is inaccurate. First of all, there is no equivalence whatsoever between Russian actions in regard to Estonia, and Estonian actions in regard to Russia, whether historically or at present. Historically, Estonia was simply the victim of Soviet Russian aggression and occupation. Today, through entirely legal means which attract no legal criticism from anywhere in the world, only emotional criticism from Russia, Estonia is trying to integrate Russian colonists and their descendants into Estonian society without destroying that society. And it’s doing a pretty good job at it, too. If you want to, I can refer you to plenty of statistical analyses and international comments to that effect, but I won’t take the time, now. Most of all, I refer you to taking a little visit to the country, and seeing for yourself.
(2) Please forget your “Anglo-American” factor in analysing things Baltic. If Anglo-Americans had never even existed, the Baltics’ challenge and desire to undo the damage of their Soviet occupation would have been exactly the same, and Russia’s response to it would have been exactly the same, if not worse. The dynamics of what we are discussing do not come from Britain and America, and any viewing of the matter through such spectacles only distorts and confuses what actually is.
(3) Russia certainly was a victim, but never of Estonia. This should therefore not be introduced into the current discussion, as it is irrelevant to it.
(4) Russia has no business to “cultivate” anything within Estonia, and certainly not any kind of “elite”. Russia should confine itself to improving its own problems, and not meddle in the internal affairs of foreign countries.
(5) About a year ago Putin issued a major call for Russians living in former Soviet lands to return home. About 20 families in Estonia – literally – responded by enquiring from Russian authorities to relocate, and to the best of my knowledge, none have actually relocated. For years already, Estonia has also offered a cash incentive for Russians wishing to return, but very few have taken this offer up. The fact of the matter is, that Russians know very well that their life in Estonia is much better than it would be in Russia, so they have no interest in leaving. This rather puts the lie to propaganda claims of how oppressed the people supposedly are.

The problem, Sanjay, is that Soviet Russia was tyrannical and murderous towards Estonians, and post-Soviet Russia is aggressively meddling and offensively untruthful in its behaviour. Russia has not been able to reconcile with its Baltic neighbours because it has not been able – or chosen not to – reconcile internally, with its own Soviet history and behaviour. A large dose of Russian honesty and reality is needed to solve the issue. Until then, problems will continue, and in the absence of genuine solutions, the best that Russia’s neighbours can do is manage the on-going challenges. The Baltics are certainly ready to co-operate and work closely with Russia whenever it wishes to get serious about improving relations.

On a personal level, relations between Baltic people on the one hand, and Russians on the other, are good. On a political level they’re terrible. The overwhelming factor in personal relations is the attitude of Baltic people, because they are the more influential and powerful within that context. The overwhelming factor in political relations is the attitude of the Russian government, because it is the more influential and powerful within that context. This gives a pretty good hint about what needs to change, and where, for further improvements to happen.

Finally, Sanjay, you recommend moving beyond Tallinn, to other internal Russian issues and challenges. An excellent suggestion, and one which I think just about every Estonian would agree. But for some reason, hardly a week goes by without Moscow firing off another anti-Baltic salvo of one kind or another. And this is what keeps the focus on Tallinn.
Sanjay January 31, 2008, 00:41: I think a more pertinent question apart from who to blame is what is to be done.

Estonians can keep blaming Soviet colonial rule as well its successor state Russia and Russians can keep blaming estonians for nazism and these prevalent themes can keep colliding forever to keep the wound fresh and pulsating.

Obviously, russian past and estonian present is to blame, but the key-player who is throwing fuel to the fire are the anglo-americans and they are not going to stop simply because Lavrov complains eloquently every now and then.

Now the question is what is to be done. Here are some thoughts:

* Russia must not make any facial gestures which even remotely look threatening.

* Russia should cultivate less confrontational elite within estonia to generate positive outlook for future relations and clearly emphasize the fact that Russia was a victim too and perhaps the biggest victim of soviet terror unleashed by Lenin, Stalin, Lazar Kaganovich and their cabal.

* Russian minorities in baltics and estonia in general should be encouraged to settle in Russia and pursue economic opportunities there.

* Russia must emphasize its spiritual, historical, genetic and cutlural kinship with Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan and promote benign, non-confrontational influence in the other 11 former republics: three baltics, three caucus, moldova, and four central-asian.

* Tallinn is just one part of those former historical trajedies for which Russia and Russian People are being fairly demonized.

* Even if we look geographically, quite frankly Russia's natural borders always demand that it must not expand beyond belarus and ukraine in the west and kazakhstan on the south.

Baltics and especially estonia now feel safe in the enlarged europe and that is certainly how future should look like.

I hope more can be done on people to people level for a gradual reconciliation and a permanent dissolution of all animosities.

Russia's efforts to involve kazakhstan more into european affairs is a positive feature and I hope its policy driven.

Finally, lets move beyond tallinn and focus on other burning issues such as healthcare and education, more on domestic issues.
ROBERT (U.S.) January 30, 2008, 21:56: I don't normally make an opinion. Unless I have been there to see for myself(on hands). However its sounds like the Estoniam goverment is acting in an aggressive passive way against the Russian minoritys. People in those countrys need to forget World War 2 and move on to the next problems in their lives. The Estonian goverment should know that causing people problems don't get them what they want. They just cause problems. People causes me problem to try to get what they want from me. But I would just destroy it rather than let them have it. Passive aggressive behavior doesn't work ,however I think people enjoy it.
Marzipan6 January 30, 2008, 12:20: The currently running video clip (“Visa refusal sparks pro-Kremlin youth protests”) is a balanced and insightful presentation of the issue, and is well worth viewing.

Besides the misdemeanours noted in the clip, last spring Nashi demonstrators in Moscow also physically attacked and damaged the Swedish ambassador’s car, in which the ambassador was travelling at the time. I can’t imagine that too many European countries would be overly sympathetic in allowing those Nashi members who have already been in trouble with police in one member country to have access to others.

When Nashi was founded as a kind of “Putin-jugend” movement, there were quite a few worried comments by analysts abroad that it would develop into something dangerous that eventually even the Russian government itself would find hard to keep in check. So far nothing has allayed these fears. The EU has enough home-grown difficulties without going out of its way to import more from abroad.
Marzipan6 January 24, 2008, 15:06: RT -- thanks for the pointer to your archived articles on this subject. I hadn't read these before, and my most recent comments were based on the Lavrov story presenter's comments.

By and large, in my view your overall presentation of the events is reasonable, and clearly tries to present both sides of the issue. As does your willingness to publish my posts.

I would like to believe Lavrov when he says he wishes to co-operate with all countries. Estonia certainly wishes to co-operate with Russia, but this cannot happen on the basis of the current atmosphere. There has to be a circuit breaker. May I suggest that as the problem historically came from Russia, the solution needs to, also.

I've even got a practical suggestion for such a circuit breaker. February 24 is Estonia's national day. Why doesn't Lavrov visit Estonia then, and bring with him the pre-war Estonian President's chain of office, which the Soviets stole and which they and post-Soviet Russia denied they even had. In the 90s Estonian visitors to a Russian museum uncovered it, and thereafter Russia not only had to admit that it had it, but the Russian government also agreed to return it. However, it hasn't returned it, and still holds it.

This treasure (it is very expensive and jewel-encrusted) is sacred to Estonia, and Russia continuing to hold it against even its own promises continues to promote anti-Russian cynicism amongst Estonians, if not downright contempt for the value of Russian promises. An enormous boost for the better in Russian-Estonian relations would instantly happen if Russia returned this item, especially by a high official, and especially on February 24. No Estonian could remain unmoved by such a gesture.

If Russia really wants good relations with Estonia, the above holds the possibility of making a pivotal change in the two countries' relations, and would unblock many other currently difficult issue between the two. So why not just do it??
Marzipan6 January 24, 2008, 14:23: By the way, there was another major inaccuracy in the video version of the current Lavrov story. In referring to the April riots in Tallinn, the program presenter described these as "clashes between Estonian and Russian nationals."

The riot was not a fight between two nationalist groups at all. There were no running street battles between competing Estonian and Russian mobs. Estonians mostly stayed home and nothing much to do with the rioting, leaving the streets to drunken Russian shop-looters and to the riot police confronting them. Even the police included quite a few Estonian citizens who were ethnic Russians.

What was happening was not a clash between nationalities, but between young thugs of one nationality only, and the police.

These facts aren't mysterious or hidden. Why didn't -- and doesn't -- Russia Today report them? [RT kindly suggests using the search tool of the website to find our reports on the 'Bronze Night' events]
Sevodnya_Net January 24, 2008, 13:49: And I meant "Russian diplomat" expelled from Latvia, of course (!)
Marzipan6 January 24, 2008, 13:19: So let’s consider Lavrov’s faith and morals for a moment. In branding Estonia as being historically Nazi, Lavrov is at odds with every relevant work of history throughout the world, apart from Russia’s own. There are two possibilities: either all the world is wrong, or Russia is wrong. Which is the more likely? In continuing to make statements that are patently untrue, Lavrov is either ignorant or knowingly deceitful -- there is no other alternative.

And in branding contemporary Estonia as Nazi, Lavrov is at odds with every international authority, apart from Russian ones, that has ever analysed Estonia, and with the millions of politicians, businessmen, journalists and just ordinary tourists who constantly visit Estonia. Either Lavrov is right and every last one of them is wrong, or they are right and Lavrov is wrong. Which is more likely? And if Lavrov is wrong (he is), he is either ignorant or malicious – there is no other option. You choose which it is, because I don't know. I just know he isn't right.

The Economist is hardly a yellow rag – it is one of Europe’s foremost news magazines. In its Country Briefing website page, under Estonia, it contains a very informative article entitled, “The truth about eSStonia”. Please do read it, and compare it with Lavrov’s comments.

A major country having a Foreign Minister of the calibre of Lavrov is certainly startling. But in his Baltic views, he differs not one bit from Putin, from Russia’s establishment, nor from the majority of Russian people. Although Lavrov often outrages foreigners with his comments, in the context of his home environment, he is just another standard Russian.
Marzipan6 January 24, 2008, 12:56: Sam writes, “So since Lavrov got a Soviet ‘poor’ education then it is fair to say that Ukrainians and let’s say Georgians got the same education. How are your relations with Georgia?”

Estonia’s relations with Georgia are great, and Estonian visitors there tell stories of being lionized and feted by even perfect strangers. I believe this is largely because Estonia has come out strongly in Georgia’s defence against Russia’s diplomatic attacks against that country, and also, because Estonia has offered Georgia material assistance and know-how to help it in its recovery from its Soviet past. By rights, this is something that Russia should be offering its former colonies, but doesn’t.

But you are right, all regions of the Soviet Union had similar russo-centric education, strongly distorted by Russian fantasies of the day (these kept changing even through the course of the Soviet era, let alone compared to non-Soviet times). I can’t speak for how other captive Soviet peoples dealt with this, but I do know how Estonians responded. Publicly they toed the official line – they had to, or they would be instantly arrested. But at home, privately, they taught their children the truth about Estonian history and about their own your in a free Estonia. In doing so they placed themselves at enormous risk – they gave their children the power to denounce them to the authorities, and to be instantly arrested and deported. There are celebrated cases in Russia and elsewhere where children did precisely that to their parents; the parents were arrested, never to be seen again, while the children were made Heroes of the Soviet Union, briefly celebrated, and then left to live the rest of their lives alone in personal torment and guilt.

Mostly Russians seem to believe whatever their authorities tell them, and there is no residual factual understanding of history with which to compare the latest official Russian re-invention of itself and of its supposed past. They just go along with it, and as they are often operating from totally false premises their views, statements and actions are often grossly inappropriate in regard to actual realities. Like Lavrov’s efforts, for example.

Sam, I certainly can’t put words in anyone’s mouth, much less in millions visitors to Estonia (and by the way, I’m not exaggerating – several million tourists visit Estonia each year, more than the population of the country itself). I have met and spoken to various of them, have seen them in many parts of Estonia, and have read the impressions of many others. You can do the same by running fairly simple Google searches on Estonian tourism. Their opinions are overwhelmingly positive, as are the views of many thousands of Russians who also choose to vacation in Estonia each year. Their views stand in stark contrast to Mr Lavrov’s. Why don’t you visit Estonia yourself, and find out who is right – nothing can be fairer than that.